Monday, January 14, 2013
News to Know Town Meeting Discussion
BERLIN NEWS TO KNOW JANUARY 11, 2012
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Included below please find:
BERLIN TOWN MEETING VOTE
Below please find a conversation that has been
taking place on Front Porch Forum regarding Berlin Town Meeting. I thought it
important to have the conversation get to more folks and therefore I have cut
and pasted all discussion on the topic to date to send along. The last post on
this page includes a link to a survey on the topic. Everyone is welcome to join
Front Porch Forum by registering free of charge at http://frontporchforum.com
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***
Berlin Town Meeting?
A couple years ago the
Berlin voters decided that Town Meeting was no
longer a place where the majority of things like the budgets should be discussed
and voted on, instead these issues would be on the Australian Ballot so more of
the voters could make these important decisions. There is still Town Meeting but
it is not what it used to be and no really important things are covered
anymore.
i thought that because this
is supposed to be a forum for such discussions it would be a good time to ask
for opinions one way or another.
We keep hearing and reading
about Town Meeting being a true democratic assembly where things are discussed
face to face, well that is no longer the case in Berlin.
***
Berlin Town Meeting
Norbert -- I hear what
you're saying. I remember being brought to Berlin Town Meeting when I was young,
and sometimes we'd be home late for supper. Now, Town Meeting barely goes until
lunch.
I think there are two main
reasons for the shrinking of Town Meeting. One is the reason you mentioned
--that the town and school budgets are no longer voted on in open session, but
are ballot items. I was there for the debate and vote that changed the way it's
done, and I heard and understand the tension. It's the counterbalance between a
small percentage of the population involved in discussing, changing, and passing
a budget versus a larger percentage of the population having a chance to weigh
in but with only a "yes or no" level of participation. Personally, I'm in favor
of the older form of active give and take and consensus, but I do understand
that a smaller and smaller number of people are able and willing to show up and
join the debate. (Perhaps moving town meeting to an evening or weekend could
offset this, as some towns have tried.)
The other reason I see for
the shrinking of Town Meeting is that so many of the decisions about running the
town are now made by various boards and committees. I remember long debates at
Town Meeting about stop signs and traffic lights, about which roads to pave or
grade, and about which areas of town to preserve and which to develop. Now there
are bodies that deal with these decisions all year long, and the questions never
appear before the town. Is this a better system or not? I'm not sure. The
question has the same pro and con feel as the budget
situation.
***
Town
Meeting
About the Berlin Town Meeting not being the same anymore
because important things like the budget issues are not discussed at the
meetings are true. But in fact it was voted by the residents to have those
issues voted by Australian Ballot so as to let more residents have a say on the
issues.
But having said that,
voting by Australian Ballet does not take away from discussing the important
issues at Town Meeting to let people vent their thoughts and ideas on a
particular issue/issue's
So I believe that voting by
Australian Ballet is the only proper and fair way for all residents to have a
say in the process of spending Town Tax monies.
***
Berlin Town Meeting And 1500+ Missing
Voters?
I have listened to the
reasoning regarding the benefits of moving the town meeting votes to Australian
ballot; mainly that it gives more people the chance to
vote.
I was surprised(and disappointed)to find out that our
town meeting participation has not increased greatly since we removed the voting
from the floor.
We had over 2000 voters in
the town of Berlin this month for the 2012 presidential election. Last
town meeting we had about 400 voters when all the ballots were
counted.
Where were the voters who
wanted a chance to participate in town meeting? Wouldn't it be wonderful to have
2000 Berlin "voices" helping to guide the town. I miss the floor
votes. And the ballot doesn't seem to be helping get more people involved...
maybe we need other ideas.
Berlin Town Meeting Continuing Discussion
Thanks to Michael
Stridsberg, Peg Monley and Henry Dukette for keeping this discussion going about
Berlin Town Meeting.
Looking back at what was
discussed in open Town Meeting last year I don't really find much that would
encourage many to attend.
We elected a Moderator and
Paul Gillies was our choice, he always does a great job.
We had two articles on
property tax due dates, penalties and interest on taxes paid late. One of those
articles proposed to raise the interest even more if unpaid for a while. The
latter one had been on the agenda for the last two Town Meetings and was
defeated both times, you wonder why the Selectboard keep proposing that one. The
members tried to lower the interest rates but that
failed.
We allowed the Selectboard
to borrow money and we declined to support further efforts at regionalization
even though we approved a $15000 appropriation for a study of regionalization on
the Australian Ballot.
And then there was the
familiar article, to discuss any business that may legally come before the
meeting.
Really not much meat there
except for the last item and if no one knows in advance what it is we are going
to cover under that why come at all. Peg Monley suggested new ideas, maybe this
is the place where we could make Town Meeting worth while by suggesting subjects
before hand and circulating points of view in advance.
Forgot to mention one
really important item that the Fire Dept always serves a nice meal at a
reasonable price and what they earn from that helps their budget. If we get done
too early no one will even be there for that.
***
Berlin Town Meeting
Perhaps it's time for
another vote to see how voters feel now that we've used Australian ballot for
budget votes for a while.
Personally, I would love to
go back to having the town and school budget discussed and voted for on the
floor along with being able to discuss other matters. It's so important to have
the discussion and instead of only having the option to vote for or against ,
you also can propose to raise or lower budgets.
I recall part of the reason
to go to Australian ballot was that not everybody can get out of work to attend.
My suggestion would be to have Town Meeting at 2 or 3pm (instead of
10am)
in hopes that voters could arrange to get out of work early. This could be a
better alternative than an evening meeting when some folks would have trouble
driving in the dark. We'll never find a time that is perfect for
everyone.
While I respect that some
voters believed they would see more people voting on items, I don't believe that
is what happened and much is lost without a strong showing of townspeople coming
together to discuss and connect.
Our friends and neighbors
who do not have internet access have fewer opportunities to be kept informed and
for example aren't even a part of this conversation.
A well attended and lively
Town Meeting makes a difference.
Corinne
***
Berlin Town Meeting Continuing Discussion
There are merits to both
formats, for sure. I'm inclined to support an in-person vote, as it allows for
discussion and changes from the floor when issues are brought
up.
Some towns have their
Meeting on the weekend before Tuesday, and/or start at various times. That
wasn't discussed in much detail when the vote was held on switching over to
Australian ballot for the budgets. Perhaps if voters were presented with some
options, they might reconsider.
***
Berlin
Voting - Looking At The Numbers
With many thanks to
Rosemary Morse, Berlin Town Clerk, for providing this information regarding
voting here in Berlin.
Berlin Town Meeting Voting (the first Tuesday in March) before
and after budgets were put on Australian ballot:
2005 476
2006 495
2007 342
2008 714
(In 2008 there were Charter Changes, changed Treasurer & Lister to appointed offices)
2006 495
2007 342
2008 714
(In 2008 there were Charter Changes, changed Treasurer & Lister to appointed offices)
In 2009 there was a Special
Town Meeting on Jan 17th which changed both the School and Town budgets from
floor vote to a ballot as follows:
145 voted on the school article - 88 yes / 57 no
139 voted on the Town Article - 72 yes / 67 no
145 voted on the school article - 88 yes / 57 no
139 voted on the Town Article - 72 yes / 67 no
2009 492 First time budgets
on the ballot
2010 397
2011 367
2012 536
2010 397
2011 367
2012 536
Town Meeting voting numbers
can also be compared with November General Election numbers, with the last four
general election years as follows:
2006 934
2008 1184
2010 1016
2012 1272
2006 934
2008 1184
2010 1016
2012 1272
***
Voting
Peggy & Paul
Irons• Crosstown Rd
Posted to:Berlin Dec 1
Posted to:Berlin Dec 1
Very interesting! So, on
average, the number of people voting after the school and town budgets began
being voted by Australian ballot, rather than on the floor at Town meeting,
DROPPED by nearly 12%. Right?
So lets change it back, so
we can discuss our budgets during Town Meeting, have the opportunity to make
changes, then vote. The evidence shows that more voters are likely to
participate.
Shall we gather
signatures?
Thanks Corrine for your
great service to our town.
***
Berlin Town Meeting Continuing Discussion
Thanks to Corrine for keeping this discussion going and
the getting the numbers from our town clerk. The statistics were interesting but
left out the numbers of people that were at the open town meeting each year and
I guess the only way you get that number is to look at some of the actual votes.
A couple were cited,ones related to the change. Many times the moderator will
call the vote and if not challenged the decision stands so no vote number is
available.
The intent in starting this
discussion was to see if there was any interest in going back to open town
meeting where really important things are discussed and could be revised on the
floor.
***
Berlin Voting - Looking At The Numbers
Thanks again to Rosemary
and Corinne for digging up the actual voting numbers. Pulling out my handy
calculator...
For the four years prior to
the change, when the town and school budgets were voted on open session, an
average of 507 people cast ballots.
For the four years after
the change, when the town and school budgets were ballot items, an average of
448 people voted.
One thing that's clear is
that putting the budgets on the ballot did not increase the number of people who
turned out to vote. In fact, it actually went the other
way.
The outstanding question
remains -- which is the better way to make a decision: 450-500 people in a
closed booth, or 100-150 people in an open session?
I have my preference, but I
can't claim to know the true answer. But I can see that with these numbers,
either way a minority of the townspeople are making the decisions for the
town.
***
Voting
I didn't realize that the
number of participating voters had dropped after going to Australian Ballot. If
this is truly the case, I too feel that returning to the town meeting forum
would open up our community.
***
Town Meeting And
Voting
Michael your quote on the
Forum "The outstanding question remains -- which is the better way to make a
decision: 450-500 people in a closed booth, or 100-150 people in an open
session"?
Your statemetn really
speaks for itsel, and hence, the fairest way to towns people to have a say in
how their tax money is spent is to keep the Australisn Ballet, since by your own
numbers, alot of people aren't able to attend Town Meeting. But you are right in
your statement that a minority of people are making decisions for the
town.
It would be interesting to
know how many absentee ballots are cast.
(Which might be for
disability, travel or out of state,or other reasons)
***
Voting - So Far, Lone
Dissenting View
Dave
Daut•Crosstown Road
Posted to:Berlin Dec 2
Posted to:Berlin Dec 2
I am fully in favor of voting by Australian Ballot.
Because of work, I would miss voting on the most important issues and the
largest budget items if I can vote only during town meeting. I suspect there are
many others in my situation. I also suspect, though probably difficult to prove
either way, that the results are skewed if voting happens only during Town
meeting to those who are able to attend. Open, honest debate and group
participation is critical in our democracy. However, having the final say on an
issue (i.e.vote) being available to me only at a narrow set time during a
workday seems unfair.
***
Voting
Phil Gentile• Paine Tpke. South
Posted to:Berlin Dec 3
Posted to:Berlin Dec 3
Let's find a mutual
Saturday, when the seasons are changing and the weather is relatively bad for
all kinds of activities, and have our meeting then. Everyone can budget one
Saturday a year if they feel strongly enough about town
issues.
***
Town Meeting
Alternatives
When we first moved to
Berlin
25 years ago I experienced my first open Town Meeting where budgets and many
other issues were discussed and decided on the Town Meeting floor. I noticed
that there were several members that were very vocal and I initially thought
they were overwhelming everyone else, but in thinking about it later it only
meant that they had done their homework before the meeting. Up to 2005 Town
Meeting reports were mailed to every household., today if you want one you have
to pick it up at Town Hall (They are larger and cost too much to mail) and I
wonder how many people really research and analyze the budgets anymore. We do
have pre Town Meeting but those sessions are not very well attended
considering how many voters we have.
Prior to moving here we
lived in a Massachusetts town with a population of about 15,000 and their Town
Meeting was attended by voters specifically elected as Town Meeting
Representatives. The meetings were held in the evening and went on for weeks and
everything was discussed in great detail. They also had a financial committee
which made recommendations on the budget. Perhaps that form of Town Meeting
would work here.
In reading all the comments
so far on Town Meeting it mostly comes down to the fact that the Australian
Ballots brings out more voters than we get at open Town Meeting, but still a
small percentage of the registered voters participate.
The main disadvantage of
the Australian ballot is that if someone dislikes an individual item within the
budget the only choice you have is to vote no. At open Town Meeting you could
convince others that an item should be deleted or even
increased..
So what would be a good
change.
One idea would be to
combine the pretown meeting with the town meeting itself, one just before the
other, this would hopefully cause more people attend the budget discussions and
do it on a Saturday. I understand the Selectboard could do this. The ballot
would be later on the normal day and at the Town Hall. A change back to open
Town Meeting would have to be a ballot vote.
Lets continue the
discussion to see if we can find a method to get more
participation.
***
Town Meeting & Australian Ballot
Jeremy Hansen – Black
Rd
Posted to:Berlin Dec
15
I wanted to take a moment and renew the conversation
about Town Meeting and using the Australian ballot.
A few different options
have been proposed or seem possible:
* Leave the current
Australian ballot system in place
* Switch budgeting issues back to a floor vote
* Switch election of officers back to a floor vote
* Start the meeting in the afternoon, at 2PMor 3PM
* Reschedule the meeting to Monday
* Reschedule the meeting to the previous weekend
* Circulate issues for discussion and share points of view ahead of time
* Switch budgeting issues back to a floor vote
* Switch election of officers back to a floor vote
* Start the meeting in the afternoon, at 2PMor 3PM
* Reschedule the meeting to Monday
* Reschedule the meeting to the previous weekend
* Circulate issues for discussion and share points of view ahead of time
Are there other options that have not been explored? Is
anyone already circulating a petition to switch election of officers and/or
budget items back to a floor vote?
The concern about getting off work is a
critical one, but some folks may not know that Vermont law gives employees the right (with seven
days advance notice) to take an unpaid day off for Town
Meeting:
I realize that unpaid days off are often not an option
for some who still want to participate.
One of the questions that occurs to me (thanks in part to
Frank Bryan's book about Town Meeting, "Real Democracy") is whether we want to
increase the *quantity* of participation or the *quality*. It appears to me that
trying to increase the quantity by switching to Australian ballot may have
decreased the quality. (And by the numbers Corrine reported, the quantity may
have gone down too!)
As Pat Mcdonald suggested, I've put together a survey so
that we can determine how everyone feels about these various
possibilities:
I will keep it open until next Friday (the 17th) and
report
# posted by Corinne's blog of Berlin and area happenings @ 6:24 AM 
